When Pamela Adlon released her marvelous directorial feature debut, “Babes,” earlier this year, my husband Matt and I had not yet been acquainted with the filmmaker’s Peabody Award-winning FX series, “Better Things.” Adlon plays a fictionalized version of herself named Sam, and loosely based the series on her own experience of raising three daughters while working as a single mother in Hollywood. Her eldest daughter, Max, is played by Mikey Madison, whose Oscar-worthy turn in Sean Baker’s Palme d’Or-winner “Anora” (opening in 35mm this Friday at Chicago’s Music Box Theatre) is sure to earn “Better Things” even more fans. Hannah Riley is superb as Adlon’s moody middle daughter, Frankie, while Olivia Edward is utterly delightful as young Duke.
Once Matt and I began watching the series, we instantly became hooked, and it has now become one of our happy places. Frequently hilarious, brilliantly insightful and achingly authentic, “Better Things” is a must-watch for anyone craving a family show bereft of trope-laden formulas. In our first interview we conducted together, Matt and I were thrilled to recently speak with Edward, who is now 17, via Zoom about her cherished memories of making the series and how it has forever enriched her artistry.
What first got you into acting, and were there any actors who you looked up to?
It’s actually kind of a funny story. When I was two years old, I was the kid who was always belting out nonsense words. I loved singing songs, performing and making people laugh. I remember being in my parents’ room, and there was a Gap Kids commercial on TV in which kids were seen dancing and playing. Apparently, I pointed at the TV and asked, “Why am I not there?” My dad replied, “You mean dancing with the kids and having fun?”, and I was like, “No, why am I not on the TV?” He was like, “Um, great question…do you want to be?” That’s how it all started. I was a musical theatre kid who idolized Kristin Chenoweth, and when I was eight, I got to sit onstage with her. That was the best day of my life, a dream come true. Because I grew up with Disney movies, I watched “Tinker Bell” all the time, though it was after I began working with Pamela on “Better Things” that I realized she performed the voice of Vidia in the film!
How did you become involved in “Better Things”?
It started initially as a self-tape where I performed one scene. That was followed by another self-tape before they asked me to do an in-person callback in California where I met with casting, which was very exciting. Then on the last round, about a week or so later, Pamela came to New York to meet me in person. “Better Things” was my first major role, and to this day, Pamela has the recording of my self-tape, which has become an ongoing joke. I was seven turning eight, and the scene was about me having a code word with Sam. For whatever reason, I decided to start the scene with my back to the camera. Then I walked up to the camera, did the scene, walked back around and ended with my back again to the camera. That is what I did, and from season one to five, I have never lived it down. [laughs] I remember after I first met Pamela, I was walking through New York City with my mom and telling her, “She’s so cool! I want to hang out with her.” It was about two weeks later when I got the call from Pamela asking if I would play Duke on “Better Things.” I remember very specifically that I was eating mac and cheese in a bowl at the time, and I could not have been more excited.
Rebecca has watched “Better Things” twice, actually.
That’s so awesome! It’s crazy because we wrapped up the fifth and final season two years ago, and there now seems to be this sudden surge on the internet where people are sharing different clips of the show. I love how so many people are getting into the show for the first time because of it.
What was it like coming of age along with Duke on the show?
It always really felt like living two separate lives at once. I was coming of age as Olivia and learning all of my own lessons, while at the same time, I was learning all of Duke’s lessons as well. The environment on “Better Things” was one that I will never ever in a million years forget. That show was such a family—not only among the cast, but the crew, because everyone knew each other. Most people came back for each season, and I’d always look forward to seeing them. We’d film for three months, and then there was a gap of time before we saw each other again, so when we’d reconnect, they’d be like, “Oh my gosh—you grew!”
We never get the sense while watching you on the show that you are a child actor who has simply been given funny lines to say. Your performance is deeply internal as well.
Thank you so much! I think part of that is due to having the incredible influence of Pamela as a director the entire time. Throughout the show, she was always very focused on capturing what felt real. It’s very easy for a show, especially family shows, to use the kids as furniture. There are children glimpsed back there simply to remind you that this is a family, and they are just required to say a funny line before popping off. “Better Things” was very centered around the realness of what an actual family household looks like, and I always refer to it as the show that will show the things that most other shows won’t think would need to be shown. And people should see it! It’s happening in the viewers’ own homes, so why not show it in this one? Having those questions of, ‘What is the most authentic? What is the most real decision?’ constantly in my mind really impacted my perspective on acting in general. I am forever grateful for that because it really lends itself to having a sense of authenticity and a genuineness to the characters.
The chemistry between you and your onscreen sisters, Mikey Madison and Hannah Riley, feels incredibly genuine.
In real life, I have an older brother who I am truly best friends with, so it was always kind of funny to perform these scenes in “Better Things” where everyone was fighting because it wasn’t at all like my household. But I never had a sister, so Mikey and Hannah really became my two older sisters. For the three months we spent filming each season, we’d always try to do things together. My first sleepover was in 2017 with Mikey and Hannah, and we were all very excited. We made pasta together, and miserably failed at following the recipe for making slime, which resulted in our arms getting stained pink. It was a bonding experience. From an acting standpoint, getting to work with them was so much fun, and rehearsal on set was such a blast. At a certain point, around season four, I was the same age that Hannah was in season one when she started, and Hannah was the same age that Mikey was when she started. I am grateful for the connection I have to them because it is very much understood that, even though filming can be fun, it is still a job, so oftentimes connections are made purely for the purposes of work. To have those sort of connections with Mikey and Hannah outside of work as well is a gift in itself.
There is a point in the show where your character becomes self-conscious about how she looks, all the while trying to uplift her best friend.
From seasons one through three, Duke is very much bright and bubbly and fiercely protective of her mom. But since she’s not immune to time, she eventually grows into a preteen and starts to change. In this day and age, the internet is everywhere all of the time, and it really does influence your mind. Thankfully, I didn’t have too much of what she was going through in terms of constantly comparing myself to others. But it was incredibly cathartic for me to be able to explore that through the character as well because it is something that is always being pushed in front of our faces. It is crazy to think about what sort of effect that is going to have on a child whose brain isn’t even done developing yet. One of the last things that happens in season five [small spoiler alert] is Duke taking up the habit of vaping, which is something I would never do in real life. I was expecting to use one that looked like a USB, but the one they gave me was a long rectangle with buttons that you had to hold like a phone. I was like, “Well, at least I know that I never have to even consider vaping now, because this is nasty,” but it was cool to explore through the character. [laughs]
You often don’t see a teenage girl like Duke onscreen. She has all of these different facets, just like a real person. Pamela is not afraid to go there with the authenticity of women and their relationships, such as the one Duke has with her grandmother, Phyllis (Celia Imrie).
Any scene with Celia was something that I looked forward to weeks in advance. She is one of if not the most prepared actor I’ve ever worked with. Working with her was always incredibly inspiring, and just watching her in the middle of a scene—how she leads the scene with her comedic timing—was such a pleasure. I think part of what drew people to the show is you have all of these generations being authentically shown in a way that is validating, whether you’re Duke’s age or Max’s age or Sam’s age or Phyllis’ age. Everyone’s story is being told, and they’re not leaving anything out. No one is shying away from things, and nothing is tied in a little pretty bow. Some people were confused by that, but it further adds to the authenticity of life.
Anytime we want to have our spirits lifted, we watch the dance sequence on the season two finale that pays homage to Christine and the Queens’ music video for “Tilted.” How were you able to keep it a secret from Mikey so that her response to it was genuine?
There was actually a code word we created for it because it was supposed to be a very big surprise, and thankfully, it all worked out. We were learning the dance on the weekends for about two months before we shot that scene, and we were not allowed to tell Mikey about it, so our code word for it was “sit up straight,” which is the antithesis of “tilted.” When I had that sleepover with Mikey and Hannah, we were in the car at one point, talking about how we all slept, and Hannah actually said, “Yeah, I slept fine. I was a little bit sore from practice, though.” I immediately was like, “Hannah! You should sit up straight!”, so she followed that up with, “But then I remembered that it was a dream, because I danced in my dream!” [laughs] We played it off, thankfully, but there were a couple times where we almost spoiled it.
Do you have a background in dancing as well?
Yeah, I’ve been dancing since I was around two years old. I did ballet, I always loved tap and I’ve actually recently been talking about how I want to get back into it. Around the time that the show started, I was traveling to California so much and I didn’t do a ton of dance. But since I grew up doing jazz, ballet and tap, just for fun, it was cool to bring that into the character. My favorite thing has always been those opportunities where I can bring something from Olivia into Duke, which makes her feel all the more genuine as a result.
When Matt interviewed Greta Gerwig, she told him about how her own background in dance helped her become a more intuitive performer.
I think dance is very much something that does make you a more intuitive performer in general, because once you become comfortable with the movement—how you’re moving your body and letting it do whatever feels right—it applies to different parts of your life as well, and that includes acting. It helps you build faith and trust in yourself. Whatever you do, you know that it’s going to be authentic because you’re not overthinking it. It’s just natural, so whatever is there is there.
We also love the sequence that begins the show’s final episode, where you perform a mesmerizing recreation of Gideon Irving’s “Woke Up Looking” music video.
That was something Pamela brought up to me in the beginning of filming season five, and I was incredibly intrigued. I remember reading about Duke’s storyline about how she was getting into poetry while going through her own internal balance and coming of age struggle. She seemed to be putting a lot into whatever she was writing, even on her phone, so when Pamela showed me the idea, I was thrilled beyond belief because it was so true to the reality of the character—and of everything. The more I look back on it, the more I can only agree with the point of the song. I had a blast working with Pamela and Gideon on it, and getting to actually record myself singing it was a dream come true as a musical theatre kid. Everything about it from the choreography to the mirrored face was so cool and unlike anything I’ve ever done.
It all had to be very specifically choreographed with the confetti and blood spatter, and because the image on one half of the screen was mirrored on the other, I couldn’t move my face that much, or else it was going to be very odd-looking. If you saw me onset behind the scenes, I was mouthing things in a very over-exaggerated way while doing various weird things with my arms, as people behind me were handing me things. Gideon’s song was so incredible and he was a powerful driving force along with Pamela in the creative aspect of how everything was going to look as well as how the song was going to be portrayed and sung. As season five was being filmed, they were building the chair that I was going to be sitting in for the sequence, and it was designed so that it wouldn’t move. I just stared at it thinking, “What is this going to be like?”, until the day where it all came together. It was such a cool, fulfilling moment.
It’s interesting how the subplot where Duke sees dead people in some ways reflects your father’s work as a psychic medium.
I grew up in a very energetic household where intuition and conversations about death and grief were never, ever considered taboo, as it is considered in many people’s lives. So being able to take that from my life and fuse it into Duke’s character was a dream come true. I really thought it was special that it was being shown more as a connection between Duke and her grandfather. It started off in season two with Duke talking to The Sad Lady in White Rock, which was one of my favorite scenes from the show that I’ve gotten to perform in because it comes from such a place of love. Her ability became a cool part of Duke’s character growth that she was constantly building upon. Without spoiling anything, I will say that in episode nine of season five, Duke has an empowering experience in connection with her intuition and her grandmother. There are no words in the scene at all, but it’s probably my favorite scene I’ve ever been in.
What was it like acting in your first feature, “The Outside Story,” opposite Brian Tyree Henry?
That’s another funny story. Brian is on “Atlanta,” which is also on FX, so we initially met at a party that the network was hosting. Pamela actually introduced us, and he made a joke saying, “We’re gonna work together one day!” I was like, “Okay, yeah, let’s do it!” Months later, we got the call about “The Outside Story” and when I walked into the room, he said, “What’d I tell you?” [laughs] It was such an awesome experience getting to work with Brian, who is incredibly talented and a force. I feel like we bonded really quickly and we had many fun scenes. It was shot in Brooklyn during the late fall, so we wore little heat packs everywhere in our coats and shoes. I’m pretty sure I had one in my hat at one point, but it honestly was an incredible experience that very much made me inspired about the possibilities in film and TV.
During “Better Things,” I was constantly learning things. I remember in season one, I was like a kid in a candy store. I didn’t want to just learn about acting, I wanted to know how the cameras worked and how the set was being designed. I was asking everyone, “What does this do? And this?”, and every person on that set explained it to me. They were so warm and welcoming. As the seasons went on, my curiosity about how everything worked was always embraced. It was really cool to take what I learned on “Better Things” and bring it to “The Outside Story,” which also aimed for a similar authenticity.
Like Duke, my character of Elena in the film felt unscripted in the sense that it never was forced or seemed to have been cobbled from other people’s takes on what kids are like. I always felt empowered to not have to fit everything into exactly what the audience may expect. Pamela was always very big on improv, and there were times during filming where she wouldn’t tell you what was going to happen. There was one scene in particular where Mikey, Hannah and I were comparing our script pages, going, “You don’t have the rest of this either, right? Is this a printing problem?” Time would go on and we would be getting the latest versions of the script, but it still wasn’t there. We asked Pamela, “What is going to happen?”, and she was like, “You’ll just have to wait.” She wanted to get a really genuine, authentic reaction, and she always got it, so it was cool to carry that into another project.
Do you think you would ever get into directing?
Oh my gosh, one hundred percent. I would absolutely love to, and I’m so grateful that I got to watch Pamela wear so many hats. I not only got to watch such an influential, talented, strong woman star in a show, but also the creative process of how she wrote, directed and produced the show. It was such a learning experience and so incredibly empowering to observe as a young girl. I saw firsthand that this sort of thing is possible, and that we should see more of it.
We are elated that you are friends with Sofia Joanna, who has been one of Cinema Femme’s biggest supporters.
Sofia is just sunshine inside and out. It is very rare to meet someone who is genuinely like that. She is brimming with creativity and it is a joy to dance with her and just be around her. I feel so grateful to have people in the industry whom I have the pleasure of calling my friends because to share a passion and creativity, especially with women, is something that is so incredibly inspiring. There are so many stories that are about women empowerment, or women-led stories, that should be told, and there are topics that shouldn’t be shied away from in any way.
What would you like to see yourself creating in the future?
I would love to direct and write one day. Of course, acting is always in the forefront of my mind, but now that I’ve witnessed all the potential of what creativity can bring, it has inspired me to explore all aspects of it. I just love working on my craft, and I have a lot of upcoming projects that I’m excited to be working on. I made the decision to graduate high school a year early so I could further focus on my craft and creativity. I am very excited to be done with high school, and college is something that I am never closing the door on, though I am really passionate about the stuff that I’m working on now.
Being in one of the greatest shows in television history is certainly a wonderful way to start one’s career.
It’s so cool to talk to people who really appreciate and love the show. I always want to make people feel something through my work. The fact that you can put 90 different people in a movie theater—all with different lives—show them one story, and they are all going to feel the same way towards the person onscreen, illuminates such a human part of ourselves.
All five seasons of “Better Things” are now streaming on Hulu.
Header photo FX Networks
